Curse

glenn_rolfe · Nov 16, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

sounds like you need to play other builds to get a wider appreciation

a cadet · Nov 17, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

My problem with tombs is that it takes so long for anything to get off the ground. Regardless of your rank, unless you join an iway or something, setting up a decent team takes around half an hour. If you just spam 'lfg' to find one already set up, that process takes about half an hour. Getting a guild group together also takes about the same amount of time because in a guild everyone feels justified in giving their opinions on the build, which usually degenerates into a lengthy discussion about why wild blow is amazing or not.

The only time when you can expect to open gw and jump right into a good team for tombs is if you are lucky enough to be that '8th' person (usually a monk), but again you cant expect that each time you play, and your chances of getting lucky this way improve mostly with how many people you know, not your skill.

The entire rank system is hopelessly flawed too. You can get a high rank in so many different ways; plod through crappy groups 1 fame at a time, go through decent groups for ~30-50 fame a day, or if you managed to get lucky and exploit one of the many skill imbalances before it was fixed you can jump straight from rank 6 to rank 9 in about a day. Since the rank is the same regardless of how you got it, you have no idea if a prospective rank 6 got it by iwaying, leeching off better friends, spending insane amounts of time, or if hes actually a *good* player. Ive seen many cases where a rank 5 was much better than a rank 8 or above, but once again its not consistant at all, and somewhat unfair to people in your group if they accepted your invitation only because they want a "rank _+ group"

In spite of all this, i think you can save the rank system (somewhat) by at least spacing the 'proof' of your rank somewhat more inteligently. There is a huge difference between a rank 6 and a rank 8, both numerically and (usually) by skill. 1000 fame compared to about 3000 fame, but both have the same emote. In alot of cases people even try to make "rank 8+" groups, but its rather hopeless since any rank 6 can just lie about their fame and get in. If they at least added some way of showing someone else your fame, in game, i think the system would improve dramatically.

None of that changes the fact that when i open CS i can jump right into a really fun game and play for the top spot right off the bat; in gw i have to go through a tedious preparation first. Im not sure how you would fix that without totally changing the game, its just one of the things i dont really like about gw.

yangster · Nov 17, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

yea. 6 team face off was the ultimate test. i miss those days.

when i went back to tombs, the 6 team face off was gone and there are no more rifts to kill

/cry.

I miss it too. I just love betraying people and laughing at them because they actually believed us.

Gwenhywar · Nov 17, 2005, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

I think an unranked player could still be valuable for your team if you assign a job for them and maybe help them with their skillbar a bit. Admittely, they still won't be as effective as a rank 6 player playing the same character, but they will do fine. That's not really leeching, I think. I am NOT saying go drop a rank 6 player and replace them with an unranked guy or so, but in the cases where you are short on one player to complete your team - why not take one of them in?

Fantus -- since I remember very well the days when I was a complete beginner in tombs (I'm rank 6 atm), and I see the way I have evolved as a player during this time, I understand your thinking. And it makes me smile, because it so reminds me of my own, back when I was where you are now. It's not only about knowing your role, it's also about the pace things happen in tombs - I once got into a rank 5 group when I was at rank 2, I remember they were so fast I was barely able to follow what was going on. Players of so different experience levels simply have difficulties to play together.

Be sure to read forums and talk with people to know the current FOTMs, and most popular builds for the types of characters you're playing. Be sure to download both TS and vent, use a headset instead of speakers + mic, and don't be shy to talk

. Oh, and set yourself to "push to talk" mode ... nothing more annoying than someone coughing or breathing in the mic

.

There are 2 ways one can go about gaining experience (and fame) in tombs (well, 3rd one is iway - but I'm not considering that). I went the first way - obviously the harder way. Just be persistant, join PUGs, try to join guild groups - there are always low-ranked guilds around who don't have enough people to fill a last slot or 2, and will take a reasonable random. Aim for rank >3 guilds/PUGs, to play with people around your own level. They won't be experts, but you can always learn something from other players - and opponents, and you won't feel intimidated by them. That's how I gained most of my fame/experience, and that's how I eventually met my current guild.

Eventually you'll meet nice people, add them to your friends list, ask them to add you and PM you next time they need a player. Tombs is all about networking. Don't just stand around LFGing, PM people who are looking for what you can play, be polite, appear reasonable & flexible. If you are in a group and people think you're a good player, and fun to have on their TS/vent (which is also very important), they'll want you in their group next time they make one.

The 2nd way is easier, and faster. Join a decent PvP guild that want to take you, learn from them, grow with them, tomb/GvG with them, have fun with them.

Don't you find that your requests of rank 6+ players taking an inexperienced stranger into their ranks and investing time teaching them how to play in tombs is a little, umm, selfish? Why should they do that, instead of grabbing a player that will not need any instructions, and is ready to just go have some fun?

That's where a PvP guild comes in. Yes, guildies will gladly train inexperienced members to become good PvPers, but for that, you need to give them something in return - your loyalty/membership. If you want to stay loyal to your PvE guild, it's understandable, but in that case it's your choice how to play this game ...

I was in that same dilemma for a long time now - and a few days ago decided to join the PvP guild I had been tombing with alot lately, since I realized the only thing that still keeps me in GW is competitive high-end PvP, and I can as well chat with my old guildies over forums/PMs. So far it's been loads of fun

.

good luck,

~Railin

P.S. I saw some posters earlier complaining about how long it takes to get a group together - well, thats the way it works. Tombs can be loads of fun, but it also takes time, patience, and persistance. If someone doesn't have these 3, they should stick to CA/TA (this is in no way a flame, simply an honest opinion). Also, it does take MUCH less time to put a guild tombs team together, which is playing a build everyone involved already knows, etc.

Mystical · Nov 17, 2005, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Excellent post Gwenhywar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Be sure to download both TS and vent, use a headset instead of speakers + mic, and don't be shy to talk

.

YES! How many times has someone in my group argued a skillbar layed out for them?! Not suggested ("How about this for this?"), not being reasonable ("This may get the job done faster")! Argued!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Don't just stand around LFGing, PM people who are looking for what you can play, be polite, appear reasonable & flexible. If you are in a group and people think you're a good player, and fun to have on their TS/vent (which is also very important), they'll want you in their group next time they make one.

Flexiblity has gotten me (a lonely rank 2) into groups with rank 6 players in it. Having alot of things unlocked really, really, improves your chances of finding a group. It's a tough choice to be specific in the American Districts with everyone and thier brother running IWAY. If a group does, be ready and apply.

Again excellent post Gwenhywar, just though I'd point out the opinions I though most important.

If anyone here would like to team up with me and my guild feel free to PM me in game. Usually doing Tombs when I'm on, so give me a shout.

Fantus · Nov 17, 2005, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwenhywar

Fantus -- since I remember very well the days when I was a complete beginner in tombs (I'm rank 6 atm), and I see the way I have evolved as a player during this time, I understand your thinking. And it makes me smile, because it so reminds me of my own, back when I was where you are now. It's not only about knowing your role, it's also about the pace things happen in tombs - I once got into a rank 5 group when I was at rank 2, I remember they were so fast I was barely able to follow what was going on. Players of so different experience levels simply have difficulties to play together.

Thanks for your encouraging post!

To clarify my words a bit, I didn't want to imply that a Rank 6+ group should take the likes of me into their group, ever. It's not my place to be. And yes, it would be both selfish and leeching.

My comments were more directed at the various groups running R3 PUGs. Sometimes (not always) they could accept an unranked player into their groups, too, especially if they are looking for exactly the same build that's standing around next to them - just in unranked form. A R3 player is probably still way better in Tombs than an unranked player, but maybe they could still be useful to such a group in a non-leeching way.

Other than that, yes, I have come to think that guild alliances and the friends list are definitely the way to go.

jules · Nov 17, 2005, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

My comments were more directed at the various groups running R3 PUGs. Sometimes (not always) they could accept an unranked player into their groups, too, especially if they are looking for exactly the same build that's standing around next to them - just in unranked form. A R3 player is probably still way better in Tombs than an unranked player, but maybe they could still be useful to such a group in a non-leeching way.

I'm r3 and I have no qualms about joining an unranked group as long as they are organised, or accepting unranked (or r3- as I like to call em) players into my group. I play in Euro/Inter servers when I'm on in the weekends so if you're looking for someone to tomb with pm me ingame.

By the way, is Fantus a reference to the Magician series?

Nov 17, 2005, 03:17 PM // 15:17

whats going everybody....I would just like to throw in my opinion..

1st of all I've also started out like everyone else. Having completed PvE with 2 chars completely (all quests/subquests/bonuses avaliable *dunno why just wanted to do em heh*)

Figured I should do PvP...ofcourse I was a pvp virgin But i knew that I had the drive...I am not a power gamer like some might be and do have real life stuff that is a priority...I started pvping at the smite/spirit spam/air spike era that one day when that pvp extreme came about with all that major faction i had no use for because ive unlocked 4 proffesions having completed the game 2x...anyway what I did is started my own smite team..the usual works 2 warriors 2 smiters to smite of em body control necro and 3 monks.....I was leading the group and had 2-3 guildies and rest was pick ups that I did not care what rank they where...But i did explain myself that if you dont follow what I have to say then I dont want to be wasting my/yours and other players in group time..I didnt make a order but it did somehow engraved it self in the pick ups brain thats "hey this guys is serious" u know. w/e so we go it im the type of dude that w/e happens happens u know...not gloating or anything but that 1st night of pvp extreme with that smite team running with maybe 2-3 different pickups we accumilated rank 3 and a little bit over for some others...made to halls 90% of the time...Now this was because alot of people made smurfs and gvged for faction.....anyway I made friends that said hey your a good leader and made contacts which later made me join better groups and teams...Just for taking a few pick ups as far as hoh map...i aint high rank but im up there but i do agree with u guys about this whole rank business...basicaly w/e i see alot of tiger spam i see the separation from men from boys (put that with females also cuz some of em do be spaming tigers) but much to the females on my behalf..

anyway being polite and and patient wins.....IWAY imo is no the way to go since FOTM is ranger spike..but its getting nerfed anyway so they say.

even if you do lose say gj and gl in hoh...even is your so provoked to call talk trash...

My only advice is to start a team by ya self and tell the squad that This is what we will be running if they dont follow its their loss...if they have a suggestion hear it out and dont bash on em.....maybe its better for the team...

Apperantly I have just made a essay sorry i didnt mean to write that much..

And to be really honest about 1/2 the time u see that hoh global message on who won its do to the ghostly bug so dont even sweat people in there dont even play legit...anet needs to fix that darn NPC.

i Will follow this post and w.e my head is more clear I will try to post hopefully usefull info...

T Waters/Main O/Freekey Zeekey

Gwenhywar · Nov 17, 2005, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fantus

A R3 player is probably still way better in Tombs than an unranked player,

He might be better playing a certain class, but completely suck at some other. Unfortunately, there is no way to know HOW someone got their rank 3 ... many people got it via iway, or playing another class, in which case they'll be worse than a rank 1 that has been playing his class much more. iway teams have definitely changed the concept of rank by producing masses of players that don't have a clue how to play anything else, making it harder for low-ranked strangers to get into better teams simply because people are afraid to pick someone they don't know. However, the opposite is also true - once they get to know you, and know what you can do, they'll pick you over a higher ranked unknown player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Waters

even if you do lose say gj and gl in hoh...even is your so provoked to call talk trash...

That's a good advice. Also, if your team has clearly lost, and has only 1 or 2 players left alive, and they don't have res sigs to start a nice chain resing, stand still and let yourself be killed, and thank the other team for a good game ... don't start running around the whole map, wasting the other team's time. It's a very noobish behavior - everyone is coming to tombs to have fun, and watching someone waste your time (in any way, either running around when all is already lost, or very defensive builds that have no chance to win but will take 20 mins to kill) is not appreciated by others.

damocles · Nov 17, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Your right about that retarded Ghost bug. I'll give you an example. Yesterday I was playing with my guild and we went to HoH. We owned a IWAY, The Holders and a retarded PUG, so we thought: "Yeah, we got it in the pocket." But at the very moment I want to move our Ghostly on the altar, he goes floating in the air. So we were like: &*&*&#$#^%^&%#@ ANET!! Can't get the Ghostly on the altar!! ****ing Bug!

But well yeah shit happens and I'll hope it will be fixed soon. But to go on-topic:

It really stinks when you can't get a group. All people our focussed on rank and fame. I know it's like well people with a ranked status know the maps way better than an unranked person. But I think you should try tombs with a bunch of friends or just find a PVP-guild where you can get lots of fame.

glenn_rolfe · Nov 17, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

the answer to this is always the same - find a better guild. Quit hanging on to your lame ass guild and find one that meets your needs. Don't argue!

Del12 · Nov 17, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

If they would just add some kinda group-post-board. Where I can list the professions, skills, attribute point distribution, and fame/rank required, and go have a cup of hot cocoa, come back and play. But thats something for the 'suggestion' forums which I have posted there. If they add that, everyone will realize just how crude the method of spamming 'lfg xxxx' really is. And finding/making groups will be easier for everyone.

Nefertem · Nov 17, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Farming fame? Then fame is useless. It's sad when farming fame has to be done to get into a group. However..

Note the name of the game. Guild Wars. That implies that it consists of guilds. If you want to do tombs, and there are a whole bunch of guilds, it will be hard to get into groups if you're not in one of those guilds, no?

Unfortunately, good PUGs are very difficult to get into because its hard to form a "strategy."

jonfal · Nov 17, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

I agree completely, as I am in the same boat. I was part of the E3E, and Beta tests, and as anyone active in those knows, only about 10% of PvE was available. Consequently, all many of me and my original guildies did was PvP. By the time the game came out, all we wanted to do was PvE, and get 2-3 toons through it.

Now, I am getting back into Tombs. I have mastered every ele build I have ever been asked to play in any group for GvG or Tombs, including the "el/mo" prot monking. I was up to 25,000 faction..BEFORE the 5x the faction and the original Extreme PvP Weekend. Now I have over 80,000, and that includes taking several breaks from GWs over the last 2 months. I have over 3 mil XP overall, including 2 mil+ on my main ele. I have unlocked 90% of all upgrades and all skills for monk, ele, and mesmer.

What I would like is for anyone that is running an organized group for HoH runs to give me a friggin chance!!! I have Vent and TS, and can follow calls, or do calls and countdowns myself. However, I can't make all the pretty rank displays, so NOBODY will even consider letting me join. I don't get a chance to explain my builds, makes suggestions, or anything because nobody will even give me a chance!!!

I wonder how new people get going at all...I feel sorry for them and their inability to ever get fame, and if Arenanet can't figure out some way to give those of us with low fame a fighting chance, we may end up giving up.

I don't believe in complaining without a suggestion for a solution, so here it is. A random 8v8 arena. Try to match up different classes as well as possible, and give them roughly 5 mins to prepare a quick strategy, assign callers, etc. I know it won't always work, and before people start complaining that people will leave if they don't get their way, leave if they don't get a diverse spread, etc., remember that it will happen equally to both sides.

Just my thoughts on this matter.

El Elementalist

Elrond Afil · Nov 18, 2005, 04:38 AM // 04:38

i have had this problem aswell, firstly i went with some ppl till i was rank 1.

but still no one wantes me

then i was in tombs and this guild "the butchers Knife" was trying to invite me.

so i accepted, they wanted a trapper and i couldn; refuse, first time we went in, played 6 times to get to hoh, unfortunately we lost, but i gained like 8 fame,

now i am pretty good friends with them, hope fully i can get my rank up to 3.

I am still looking for a pvp guild, wispa me if u can take me

Senketsou · Nov 18, 2005, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibex333

100% agreed

Also it would be nice if Anet divised some kind of system that automatically matches players to teams according to their fame amount. Once the team is assembled it would be matched in tombs to a team of similar skill level. NOT some team that has much more fame.

Just going through random threads and saw this. Ibex, not to be rude, but that would completely ruin tombs. Tombs is a build based pvp section in guild wars. Your team has to be very coordinated to hold HoH, and that would mess everything up. You obviously dont do tombs often. If so, you would understand the logic behind why that was a stupid reply.

ibex333 · Nov 18, 2005, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senketsou

Just going through random threads and saw this. Ibex, not to be rude, but that would completely ruin tombs. Tombs is a build based pvp section in guild wars. Your team has to be very coordinated to hold HoH, and that would mess everything up. You obviously dont do tombs often. If so, you would understand the logic behind why that was a stupid reply.

Actually.. I do tombs often lately. For the past month.
I have been playing the game since it came out. You say that my reply was stupid. But isnt it stupid how players in elite teams farm fame off of ppl who are worse and getting more and more. But new players cant get fame since they suck or cant get into a team. I think that's hardly fair. It's like favoring the rich and not giving any chance the poor. Shouldnt that be the other way around? (Then again, what do I expect to come from someone who is wearing FOW armor?

)
Besides. Think about the idea stated below. (I already posted this earlier, but apparently you have no desire to read. you just read a RANDOM post and say a RANDOM thing)
It is like a vicious circle! I can't get to rank 3 cause I cant get into a team, and I cant get into a team cause I'm not rank 3 !!! Cant you see that?
For the rest of you people, thiose who said that instead of bitching, one must overcome and adopt. I agree with you. But it is my personal experience that I can sit in tombs all day, and NEVER get into a good team. I can only get to a noob team that will be lucky if they get 5 fame in 3 hours. Also dont forget how ppl just leave if they see that the team is weak. I tried starting my own group. But ppl who join are almost ALWAYS noobs. And dont BS me about the idea that I can just lie about rank 3. People ALWAYS ask me to emote. Now compare someone like me who gets like 10 fame a day tops. To someone who got no more skill than me but was lucky to get into a PvP guild, and gets 50 fame a day? That is simply not fair. Anet constantly tries to establish equality by nerfing farming, etc. Why dont they do the same to Tombs? COMMUNISM is a bad idea in real life. But in MMORPGs it's a necessity.

Rey Lentless · Nov 18, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Why should you get an equal amount of fame for beating crap teams, while higher ranked teams would have to beat much better teams to get the same amount of fame?

How does that make sense to you, other than the fact it would be to your benefit?

tafy69 · Nov 18, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ibex333

Actually.. I do tombs often lately. For the past month.
I have been playing the game since it came out. You say that my reply was stupid. But isnt it stupid how players in elite teams farm fame off of ppl who are worse and getting more and more. But new players cant get fame since they suck or cant get into a team. I think that's hardly fair. It's like favoring the rich and not giving any chance the poor. Shouldnt that be the other way around? (Then again, what do I expect to come from someone who is wearing FOW armor?

)
Besides. Think about the idea stated below. (I already posted this earlier, but apparently you have no desire to read. you just read a RANDOM post and say a RANDOM thing)
It is like a vicious circle! I can't get to rank 3 cause I cant get into a team, and I cant get into a team cause I'm not rank 3 !!! Cant you see that?
For the rest of you people, thiose who said that instead of bitching, one must overcome and adopt. I agree with you. But it is my personal experience that I can sit in tombs all day, and NEVER get into a good team. I can only get to a noob team that will be lucky if they get 5 fame in 3 hours. Also dont forget how ppl just leave if they see that the team is weak. I tried starting my own group. But ppl who join are almost ALWAYS noobs. And dont BS me about the idea that I can just lie about rank 3. People ALWAYS ask me to emote. Now compare someone like me who gets like 10 fame a day tops. To someone who got no more skill than me but was lucky to get into a PvP guild, and gets 50 fame a day? That is simply not fair. Anet constantly tries to establish equality by nerfing farming, etc. Why dont they do the same to Tombs? COMMUNISM is a bad idea in real life. But in MMORPGs it's a necessity.

Ranked teams are made because people want to play with people of the same standard or near enough, thats fair enough imo.

R3+ people can make their R3 teams and do relatively well
R6+ do better
R9+ Do very well and their pugs hold HoH often

The problem is people who are <R3

How do non ranked people tell who is noob and who is decent?
Does the leader have any experience at leading a team?
Does the leader know how to build a succesfull team?

Answer is no, How can the non ranked non noob pvp players get teams and get some fame?

What i suggest is a 6v6 arena with relic runs, alter matches etc as a training ground to tombs. Peaple can learn on 6v6 and moving to 8v8 wouldnt be so bad then.

At the moment u can play 4v4 as much as you like but the skills and tactics are completely totally different! 6v6 would go a long way to resolve the difference.

TadaceAce · Nov 19, 2005, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Thie kind of complaint really doesn't make much sense. If you truly are a good rank 0 then simple, somebody asks you your rank, you give um a skill bar. Its not the rank that keeps you off the team, its the "I'm really good" and then show up as a Mo/R with melandrus resiliance.

Its really the adverse of what you are saying. At least the groups I am in we ask for rank 3+. If what we need advertises LFG then we usually invite him and ask for a skillbar.... yes 99/100 we get some completely idiotic absense of logic in every way build.